High Elbow vs. Low Elbow (Neutral Shoulder) Explained
We all need a foundation behind our beliefs and id like to say that we think we found something in the science that suggests that we need to be teaching our athletes from an earlier age to utilize low elbow or neutral shoulder hitting mechanics. Everyone is choosing what they want to believe so here is where we will dive into our belief that what we (yes WE admittedly) have taught our athletes in volleyball over decades may actually be going against their natural movement via their anatomy and causing shoulder pain unintentionally. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Thankfully we ran across Billy Gilsan and the Powercore360 Founder and decades of experience. He brought to our attention that a solution right in front of our very eyes in baseball, javelin, football all sports that that use a low elbow to start their overhand throw. Why don’t we also teach that for volleyball hitting mechanics? IS this something we really need to consider here at Tulsa Volleyball Private Lessons? Let’s Dive in.
I go to the science and I go to the Physiology, and we can say things like bio mechanics, but I go in deeper. What’s the anatomy? What are the lines of pull on muscles and lines of pull on fascia? I looked at a couple of the videos that you sent and yeah, I mean they’re, they are tall females with really long arms, and they because the length of their arm, they can create a lot of arm speed, right? And they’re tall and they’re on a women’s net, they can hit the ball down. Great, so they’re having success with that, but it’s not based on any anatomy except theirs. There’s is just a long arm they’re going to create long they’re going to create a lot of arms power.
Let’s just look at the shoulder in in in general, male or female. It doesn’t matter which gender you want to go to. I’m going to try to give you some information and some references. When you say research, be careful because research doesn’t mean that these are research articles. But let’s just say science, because there are plenty of textbooks on anatomy, Physiology, biomechanics.
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This is a book by Thomas Myers. It’s called Anatomy Trains. It will help you understand the body and how to create rotational power and load. It goes into fascia from a very surface level imagine taking your skin off, just under the skin underneath the skin is fascia. It covers from the tip of your head down to your feet, 360 degrees around your body, right, that is your fascia. Is an elastic tissue and it functions and it does different things, but it actually holds the muscles in place. There are attachments from the muscle to the fascia, but the fascia by itself is very elastic tissue. So what Thomas Myers did with Anatomy Trains is there are different lines of fascia. That for movement, not sports movement[CE1] [CE2] alone, but movement period. There’s is a lot of sports application in here; they’ll show throwing, hitting, kicking, golf swing. They’ll show a lot of things in there so there’s some practical application.
Elastic Band Makes For A Good Example Of Our Elastic Tissue
They gave you a I just took some rubber tubing, the elastic band, any kind of elastic tissue. So, here’s a resistance band, right? You have some there I’m sure at Tulsa Volleyball Private Lessons just laying around for resistance training. And so, one of the things I want you to understand when we start talking about different lines of pull, lines of pull can be for example your tricep, and it’s the triceps that are a big hitting muscle, especially in a high elbow. A lot of the power comes from the tricep extending the elbow, but the tricep runs from the elbow down underneath your armpit. And so, if you look at the length of that muscle, the line of pull at that muscle, if you just look from my elbow to my shoulder. That’s the way to pull it’s strength. When the when the elbow extends it’s extending because those muscles have been lengthened and now they shortened but they shorten in a direction and a line of pull the muscle.
Benefits and Downsides of High Elbow
When you really start to need to understand how do you create force or torque or power for in this case the arm swing and you start looking in the shoulder and you can start saying what are the benefits of high elbow? What are the downsides of high elbow right from a force production perspective? So how do you hit harder OK. If you teach a high elbow. It is so much easier to teach. It is less complex, because when you jump, the arms naturally assist the jumping motion to the body to go overhead. Therefore, it’s so hard when you’re working with volleyball athletes who are learning to jump to block jump, or to jump up to do their approach, because what they have to end up in essence learn is how to lift the left arm up pointed the ball just like they were going to hit. That’s the natural motion. However, with the neutral shoulder the right arm (for Right Handers) can’t do that. If the right arm goes all the way up there, there’s not enough time in the air to works its way back to neutral shoulder. So you’ll see with a lot of people teach it because it’s easier to train however during this article we are going to discuss the models Powercore360 teaches a model that Olympic players use and we are going to back it up with why using the lines of pull of the muscles, lines of pull in the fascia just like that of what Thomas Myers talks about in the book, Anatomy Trains.
He’s been on the men’s US Olympic team for at least two or three Olympics, and he is the poster child for what we teach on the men’s side. We also certainly can show a lady that played for Brazil and the Olympics, that uses the same mechanics as a female. So, if we’re looking at body position. So, this is what we teach, we teach the athlete to go up and learn to develop the Reverse Power C, where the legs are up behind the body.
- Belly button is facing the right antenna, and if we look now at the upper body, you’re seeing how his torso, his sternum, starts by facing the right sideline.
- His hips and pelvis have already started to turn from right antenna to left, and so what’s that doing is it’s stretching the abdominal muscles and it’s stretching the fascia that goes from his left hip front of his left pelvis to his lower part of his right rib cage. That is one of the fascial lines called spiral line because it spirals diagonally across the body and that’s what makes Matts swing so powerful in volleyball. It’s in the human body, it’s in males’ human bodies, in females’ human body. Every athlete that you train has these. So, we have a spiral line that goes from the right rib cage down across the belly to the front of the left hip and pelvis. So, when you do what Matt Anderson does, when you do what we teach at Powercore360, is they go in the air and they get in the reverse C position.
- Hips are still turn a little bit right first and then they kick the feet and the hips and pelvis start to go left. It creates this BIG STRETCH through the muscles of the obliques because internal external obliques are stretching. Rectus Abdominis goes up and down, but we’ve got the spiral lines of the fascia that are going from the left side of the hip across to going up across your right peck and into your right shoulder. So, you’ve got this HUGE diagonal line elastic line that goes from the left hip to right shoulder.
- So think about Matt Anderson as he starts to turn his chest and shoulder, rotationally STRETCHING rotationally LOADING into this spiral line with the legs up like this and it basically when the arm gets up in this neutral shoulder position and the feet start to kick it is basically stretching and crossing this quick stretch-shortening cycle and in strength conditioning terms, myotatic reflex its part of the nervous system, it’s a reflex. It’s built into, hardwired into our bodies. But when these muscles stretch quickly, you fire in the abdominal muscles, you fire in the hip muscles, you fire in the Pec muscle you’re going to get a stretch from all the way across the front of the shoulder, across the pec, across the ABS, into the hips and pelvis. When the feet kick and the hip start to turn left, you’ll notice it.
- If the hips are turning right to left for the athlete. These ideal mechanics are for a very mature athlete like world class, best athletes, best mechanics. The right arm is going up into external rotation, the chest is turning right while the pelvis is turning left, then in essence puts a stretch on pectoralis major a BIG muscle here in your chest, anterior deltoid, internal rotators of the shoulder and then all the fascia is more superficial to that, that creates the stretch-shortening cycle. The stretch shortening cycle or myotatic reflex means this. If I take a muscle my tricep, and I lift it up here slowly, the muscles will stretch, but because the movement and the load is slow, I won’t get a stretch-shortening cycle or myotatic reflex in my tricep or any other muscle. If the arm comes up quick and snaps back quickly, the sensors, the nerve sensors in the muscles will basically stretch very quickly. It’s the body’s safety device. It’s a safety device created by these sensors, nerve sensors in the muscles that will cause that muscle because the body is trying to protect them also from being torn. So instead of it going back real fast in opposite direction, it will automatically, subconsciously, without any thought on your behalf, it will contract these muscles. Contract and shorten them, pulling the muscle back with so much more force and speed that you can consciously do under your own control.
- Same thing with plyometric jumps calves, your quads, your butt, your hamstrings. You Train that at Tulsa Volleyball Private Lessons. That’s part of what you’re doing when you’re doing vert training and you doing plyos, you’re basically teaching and leveraging the myotatic reflex, the stretch-shortening cycle for those big jumping muscles to create vertical forces so they can jump higher.
- When you get up into what Matt Anderson’s doing here, if you look at this once again. So here he is, he’s up in the Reverse Power C. See, what’s going to happen is he’s going to kick his feet. The kick of the feet starts these wound-up energies, and it turns his hips and pelvis, his belly button, hips and pelvis from right into left. What I was saying a minute ago is watch this, his pelvis is turning to his left and his right arm and shoulder are going up into external rotation. So, there’s the big time stretch across the front of his abs. across the front of his pecs across the anterior deltoid on his right shoulder internal rotators are getting stretched and this sequence and timing everything it’s summation of forces that makes him so powerful!
Summation Of Forces
In other words, if I’m just swinging my arm, all the forces I really get are from my tricep, a little bit of shoulder, and depending on how much shoulder turn I get, I’m going to be able to add the forces together from a couple of different muscle groups. Let’s just call that three different muscle groups. But if we get the best hitters they’re stretching muscles from the front of their quads, their hip flexors, their ab muscles, their chest muscles, their pec muscles, their tricep, their shoulder, the rotator cuff, all those muscles. Many more muscles can create more power than just a few. So, from a force development perspective, you can create more force. If you create more force, that means you’re going to hit the ball harder. It doesn’t matter if your hands moving any faster, but just the force behind your hand contacting the ball, the ball will come off your hand with more force if you can now take advantage of it. How many muscles can I load? How much faster can I load? that’s what athletes come to you at Tulsa Volleyball Private Lessons for so, I want to create more forces across bigger muscles that can be used to hit the ball harder and with more arm speed which will result in in more ball speed if the ball harder at the same time there’s this is a two prong.
It’s about performance and it’s about injury prevention. It’s easy for someone to go teach a high elbow swing. There’s no doubt you can teach it faster and easier because the natural motion is to jump and rise both arms. You have a dilemma. When I ask parents at the start of our clinic, and I always asked the parents what do you want from this clinic? What do you want your athlete to get out of this? That you would expect to hear is I want them to crush the ball and there’s some parents that say that they want him to hit harder. That’s great! At least half of them say I don’t want my kids shoulder tore up. So, part of what we do is very much twofold. We’re always trying to improve performance and we’re also then also at the same time, if you do the right things, you’re trying to reduce the stress on the shoulder if you just do the high elbow, you can create less force with a high elbow than you can if you’re creating all the big muscles and winding up, loading up rotationally. More muscles, more power, more fascia. We already went through that.
When they go into a high elbow. They basically will take their humeral head and they’ll run it into the top of the scapula. That is supraspinatus, it’s your top rotator cuff muscle. That’s the athlete that walks up to you and says I’m having shoulder pain out in front of the shoulder and on top. That’s just the body’s response saying something’s happening and the more you do it, the more volume you do it, the faster you do it without rest and recovery. You know that’s going to happen. It’s that’s the kid that’s having pain. That’s a mechanical problem. It’s also a strength and conditioning and a movement pattern problem, OK, because what happens is every joint in the body we’re talking about, the shoulder here, has to get stability and control from somewhere. Most of these young kids that are walking in, it’s the PEC minor, a small PEC muscle that attaches to your rib cage and up in the into the shoulder and shoulder blade complex. It is short and it’s pulling it over and internally rotating it, but it’s providing stability to the shoulder, into the arm. When a high elbow is performed, that kid that shows up and they start having pain. The high elbow is the cause of that right? That movement with the hand going up ahead, whether they’re swinging or even jumping. It could create that pain, right?
So, what you want to do is when we’re teaching in the Powercore360 masterclass, we teach them starting in about week five, week six to start connecting our SCAP loading as it’s a baseball term, but we’ve stole it from baseball. We are teaching them how to take the muscles underneath the shoulder blade and flatten that down to the rib cage so that their shoulder blade moves and gets them out of this forward rounded internally rotated position. So, if my arms coming down into neutral shoulder, I go into external rotation now because of the fibers of the pec major, those fibers are now stretched. They are now engaged in the movement. You’re going to feel the stretch in your pec major. OK, that is a HUGE muscle that will generate all kinds of forces for throwing or hitting a ball or any kind of sports implement overhead.
Why Not Volleyball?
So here’s what here’s what volleyball does that’s different from every other overhand throwing or hitting sport. They teach a motion that doesn’t make any anatomical, biomechanical, physiological sense. At pro Day and Tulsa Volleyball Private Lessons, you have all kind of athletes train there not just volleyball. Nobody else, no other sport teaches that, right? So let’s talk about American sports.
- A baseball pitcher does not raise their arm up and do this and throw and keep their arm on this side of the body. What did they do? They are loading the same way, I’m telling you right they’re rotating back. The shoulder elbow is down below the shoulder, wide, because now the shoulder blade, the shoulder itself, the humoral head can sit the rotator cuff and do its job. As the arm rotates, it doesn’t come up and pinch on the supraspinatus. And so it puts the shoulder in a muscle, the shoulder in a position to stretch, stretch the pec major. Now the ab muscles are being stretched, the leg muscles, the hip and fascia all the way around they’re being stretched right? That’s why people that throw 90 to 100 miles an hour, that’s how they can do it and not have the stress on the shoulder or the back because they’re spreading the forces off the shoulder, spreading it out across the entire body.
- Quarterbacks. How do they throw? Same way they rotate, the arm comes up, it’s the same thing, right? And you’re going to see the position of the arm. The elbow needs to be slightly lower than the shoulder for the shoulder joint to have stability and to be able to generate and tolerate the shoulder torque.
- Javelin throwers. What do they do? The arm comes back. They do this that all the reasons I’m telling you they’re loading into the fascia, the lines of pull up the muscles and especially the pec major. It’s a huge muscle that needs to be engaged.
Is it harder to teach that in volleyball? Absolutely it is. That’s why every kid that I talked to and every parent I talked to, I said to them, this is not easy. This is not the basic way to hit a volleyball. The basic way when you’re 12 or 10 to learn to get ahead of volleyball or volleyball, and it’s like throwing darts. Because all you really have to move is your elbow. Now the problem is twelves and 10s and elevens can’t get the ball over the net. Why? Because all they’re doing is they’re tricep, and their tricep is small with no strength.
Effortless power means that you stretch and load into the fascia, and every sport does it except volleyball. Because we’ve got people in volleyball that are not basing it on science anatomy. They’re basing on what they taught or what they heard, or what they learned somewhere else. But if they will take the time and go talk to someone that understands the anatomy, understands the Physiology, understands loading the biomechanics, and truly understands and don’t just throw the terms around. They can really get down into the level of what’s going on in the shoulder, what’s going on in the core, what’s going on in the spine, what’s going on in the hips. That’s what we’re doing at Powercore360. We’re figuring out how do you turn your body, load your body and in advanced way that every other sport in the world does except volleyball. How do you do that? To create more force, more arm speed and tolerate it? Because here’s the decision that people must make. They’re teaching high elbow. If you’re teaching that, yes, it’s simpler to teach. I know that at pro day and Tulsa Volleyball Private Lessons your looking for the long term of your athletes. That’s great! If you don’t want to have to go spend weeks and hours and years making that out, like world class from a mechanical perspective, then go teach the high elbow. But also understand there’s an inherent risk that you might be tearing shoulders up. They are tearing shoulders up. Not every kid that hit uses a high elbow is going to hurt their shoulder or their back, but there are certain structures and certain kids that just can’t tolerate that position.
We say with our product is this is not for the recreational athlete; this is not for the kid who wants to go play rec volleyball. This is for the athlete that wants to play, be a good high school player, more than likely wants to play at a high-level club is going to have a ton of volume and then really wants to go play college or go Pro. So, we don’t disguise it and say this is for everybody, but it’s now a parent making a decision for your kids, shoulder your kids back. There’s more to it, but when you if you just look at the arm and shoulder from a performance perspective and injury prevention perspective. That’s a big part of it.
What Goes Up Must Come Down
Now, I’m going to say that when there’s an analogy of what goes up, comes down right. If we take that analogy and we talk about arm swing, it’s not just about creating arm speed because there’s different ways to do it. How can we how can we maximize how much armed force and arm speed we can generate to hit the ball harder with more force and how else do we tolerate it slowing down. All these seated pull exercises. Guess what we’re doing? We’re teaching the muscles of the shoulder blade, the T spine and everything to move. We’re building the muscle memory for this movement pattern. We’re building the strength and conditioning and the mobility. All at the same time, right? It’s a great benefit. So, they’re working on performance, they’re working on injury prevention. Now, the real point is when I create more speed coming into the ball, what slows it down? If I do old school volleyball, which says all I ever do is I let my right hand (Right hander) finish down the right side of the body. What muscles are slowing it down? The humorous right, because it’s rotating, and you know going from a flex position to extend and fast. These couple of movements are happening very fast. What’s slowing it down? Well, the rotator cuff on the backside. The external rotators are the muscles that are part of the muscles that will slow internal rotation down as they swing and go into internal rotation. Those are not very big muscles. And the rotator cuffs primary job is not to create rotational forces, it’s to keep the humoral head connected into the glenoid fossa. If that’s all I’m ever using to slow the arm down those aren’t big muscles.
Particularly in young high school athletes their external rotators are not very strong. Those muscles are very weak. So, part of what we’re doing over and over, seated pull exercises, seated push exercises, we are strengthening the rotator cuff. We are strengthening the muscles underneath the shoulder blade, right. Flatten that shoulder blade and connect it down because they are weak, they have no strength, no endurance, and that they don’t have to move. If I do this arm motion, where I finish on the right side, there’s not very much in terms of muscle tissue or fast muscle or fascia tissue that’s going to slow the arm down. And in fact if you do that there’s just not much on the backside of the arm to slow the arm down. You go to any therapist or any doctor that knows the shoulder they’re going to tell you that’s not a good stable position to put the shoulder in. That’s what so many are teaching in volleyball at a high speed, high velocity, high volume, high load and we’re wondering why kids are showing up with shoulders that are sore, that are inflamed, that are hurt, that require surgery. Because people are just naïve because that’s what they learned without digging into the anatomy.
Arm Finishes On The Opposite Hip
So now let’s talk about, OK, when you teach what we teach, right? So, let’s, let’s think about the visual. Quick, simple visual. Watch a Major League pitcher. We already talked about how they wind up. Now when they step, they turn their hips, they turn their chest, they use the big muscles. The faster the muscles on the front side of the body, they get stretched as we go back. Those then shorten and that pulls the arm forward with the arm and it doesn’t go on the right side of the body, it goes to the opposite hip. Why? Because the arm is being pulled by the pec muscles, the fascia along this diagonal line, it’s just following the natural turn of the body. When the arms need to start slowing down. It’s the external rotators but depending on the angle of the arm coming through, if it’s coming across my body, I’ve got posterior deltoid, I’ve got a bunch of SCAP muscles, I’ve got the lat muscles all working together. My butt muscles, my left butt muscles, my left hamstring muscles for a pitcher as they bend and go forward.
That’s what baseball players do. That’s what football players do. That’s what javelins throwers do. Every other sport except volleyball does. Volleyball thinks they figured something out and they really haven’t. They haven’t studied the anatomy.
Why do the other sports do it this way? Because it makes sense in terms of stretch load. And it because now because of deceleration of the arm, the chest to shoulder to back, the hips. We got more motors to not only create forces, but we’ve also got more motors to slowly arm down to slow the spine down, to slow the hips down. So, we have a lot of tissues, elastic tissues that will stretch and slow the arm down.
- We teach them how to throw and then we take it into hitting. Why? Because we just taken all those isolated forces off the shoulder and spread them out throughout the entire body. Diagonally, obliquely following these spiral lines.
You can pick some Olympic athletes from the US and just because they were Olympic doesn’t mean they haven’t experienced shoulder pain. You look at their shoulders and volleyball and they’re walking around with tape all over their shoulders. And that’s a message I say to the kids all the time, that’s not a Medal of Honor. That is telling you that mechanically, they’re moving their shoulder through a way that their shoulders not tolerating something mechanically, is off.
How Do You Train Reverse C?
You train it by creating rotational movements of the body, rotational lunge. When you lift your arm up overhead (High Elbow), you’re not creating a rotational load. But the load is in the sagittal plane of the body. So, when you do this what does the back do? The back arches that stretch the abdominal muscles. From a very young age this is the first thing we teach kids or naturally they just throw with their arm their overhead hitting pattern (volleyball) will be just arm first. And it is the athlete learns more how to use their body. They’ll start arching their back, they’ll use their back muscles to arch so that they’re using more muscles, more power. That will stretch the abdominal muscles. And then you’ll get a stretch-shortening cycle out of rectus abdominis. Now that same kid starts doing it a lot and if their body doesn’t tolerate, now they’ve got shoulder pain and back pain, why do they have back pain? When they’re bending, there’s all these joints back there. But let’s just say that they’re bending and guess what? They’re bending out probably the same spot over and over and over.
And so, you know, the analogy we use is take a metal coat hanger and start bending it. When you first start bending it at the same spot, it gets worn. Well, that’s what the shoulder gets. The kid comes up to you after practice and, says, “coach, my shoulder hurts.” What does it feel like? It just feels hot, right? Well, OK, because it’s moving at the same spot, it’s impinging on supraspinatus. It’s impinging on a lot of tissues at the same spot in the shoulder or in the back. Same thing, the same area. Just keeps working, working, working. It gets to an overuse. Isolated forces on one spot keep doing that on the on the metal coat hanger. What happens? It’s going to bend; it’s going to break. So, you go from a hot shoulder to an inflamed shoulder to the doctor, to the nurse, the therapist, whoever.
Beginner vs. High Level Volleyball Athlete
High Elbow is part of the maturation process. You’re 8 or 9 years old and you’re learning how to do that high elbow. With Powercore360 training I’m going to show you a better more mature more advanced pattern. Because if you’re really a serious athlete that’s going to play a long time, you probably are not going to tolerate this high elbow movement pattern very long.
If you’re the rec kid and you’re playing for four weeks for middle school and that’s it, whatever. And they’re not strong, they’re not doing enough, they’re not training, it’s probably not a big deal. Have a great time. Go enjoy Volleyball.
If you’ve got the high-level athlete that wants to be good and you know they’re going to play national, they’re probably going to play open, they’re going to go play Division 1,2,3 volleyball. The volume is going to be there. There’s a good chance they won’t tolerate these high elbow movement patterns very long.
So, if the person is knowledgeable about what’s going on, the anatomy, the Physiology, the movement, the loading patterns and unloading, what you’ll say is OK, hey, we have a better pattern for you
Sagittal vs Transverse
The longer the kid raises their hand up overhead, they’re not loading rotationally in this plane, right? They’re loading in the sagittal plane. We want them to load rotationally in the transverse plane of the body. We want to teach shoulders going to the right. We want to teach the hips to go to the left. Those are rotational movements that happen in the sagittal plane of the body when the arm comes back. Then now down here, the forces in the arm and the shoulder blade are connecting to the torso, the t spine. It’s helping create that rotational load. It starts happening as a function of the training. So that’s why we spend five or six weeks over and over and over again. It’s an advanced movement that comes naturally when we train kids started to get into the reverse power C. why? Because they’re learning how to rotationally loud body naturally responds,
And last thing I’m going to tell you is Monica Wolf. She was a physical education instructor, I think in the 1940s, OK. You will be able to search her on the Internet she developed what she said was the. Well, I don’t know what she called it, but basically, it’s the steps of overhand throwing development for human being, right? So, she’s going to show you exactly what we just talked about.
- She’s going to show you that when I, when a two-year-old three-year-old starts to throw, the first thing they’ll do is lift their arm up overhead. It’s a very immature throwing pattern, but it starts. It’s cool, and it might be what you do the first day with an 8- or 9-year-old who you’re trying to teach them. You teach their arm to move, right?
- But then very quickly she’ll start talking about stage two is they start to turn their torso and then they ring their arm rotationally back. OK, for all the reasons we’re talking about, right?
- Then next step is, they will step, they will turn their hips, they’ll get a counter rotation, they’ll step, they’ll turn their hips, they’ll turn their chest, their arm will come through.
- They will rotate the body with weight shift or step.
really Monica Wolf needs to get the credit for this. But in essence what I would tell you is you can look at the maturation process for a volleyball hitter and this is very natural. Trying to get the ball over the Nets like throwing darts. They’re going to bring the arm up overhead and they’re going to start to rotate. But and then they’ll start stepping with you. If you look at all this, they’ll step with the wrong foot, they’ll step with the right foot to the left. So, you must train, step with the left foot, turn your hips.
Ultimately What We Have Been Teaching In Volleyball Is Irresponsible And We Are Standing Up To Be Disciples Of Teaching Neutral Shoulder
Where volleyball is at is, it’s a very immature process in terms of what we’re teaching, we’re teaching, yes, because for a club director or coach just to teach this.
This is what I tell the parents if all you’re hearing and volleyball practices get your elbow up, gets your elbow, get your elbow, it’s time to find a new coach. Because if your kids coming home with shoulder and back pain, you guys don’t understand mechanically why they’re creating an extension flexion pattern, it’s fine unless that kid’s going to play a lot, have a lot of volume, all the stuff. If they are, and the kids showing up with shoulder pain and back pain, then you ought to have a coach in your club that’s like the expert that says OK, we better go teach them how to load rotationally, right and otherwise I feel like it’s, with all the knowledge and exercise science that’s out there, it’s irresponsible in my opinion not give them any choice or ignore people that have knowledge and expertise in this area. I almost feel like they’re putting themselves in a in a legal situation. I’ll tell you what the real problem is. We all have egos, and the problem is somebody has an ego that’s getting stepped on, right. But the biggest thing we run into everywhere and every sport is egos, right? Egos. People that are just become parents. They’re repeating what they heard, like a parrot does, like a bird does. It didn’t actually learn and researching and trying to understand more so.